I finally settled on the ISM Adamo Breakaway saddle and absolutely love it. Last week, I qualified for the 70.3 World Championships in Clearwater, FL. I qualified in Cancun on a roll-down slot (13th in my age) and am absolutely thrilled! I still can't believe that I have tried literally EVERY saddle and every one makes me numb...EXCEPT the ISM.
Dave, after several months of usage, I was compelled to write and tell you what an incredible saddle the Adamo Race 2 is. I only wish I had tried it sooner.
Like many uninitiated to the ISM concept, I simply rode what I always had and was reluctant to switch. That was the case until an analysis of my power and position dictated a slightly higher saddle position. For years, I'd always heard my saddle should be raised to preserve power output yet I was unable to do so because of too many narrow-nosed saddles proving to be too unbearable even at the prescribed height.
As you know, I am an employee within the bike industry and have access to just about anything. Within our shop we even have several ISM demo saddles yet I simply chose to purchase one outright. Right away, I was amazed at the comfort and also the stability.
It is this latter observation I was motivated to write about. In addition to my previous and atypically low saddle height, I was always forced to "choose a side" on which to perch. For years I conditioned my left side to bear the brunt of my weight bearing which resulted in my overextending my right leg. After several bouts of ITBS, my fitter recognized this slight imbalance. With the Adamo Race 2 I feel not only more stable and powerful under load, I feel more centered on the bike than I've ever felt in my life.
I will continue to sing great praise about the family of saddles from ISM--highlighting not only their inherent comfort, but the promise of a better riding, more stable feeling bicycle as well.
I have been training and racing for 10 years. I am Cat 1 road biker and I don’t suck. 14 wins this year. I ride 10-20 hours most weeks. I honestly was considering stopping training this winter because of the pain in my gouch. NO JOKE. I have never been comfortable in 7 years. I have tried every saddle known to man. By the way I just got in a from a 3 hour ride… NO PAIN… NONE…
I just love my race saddle. This is the first season where not once did I have numbness or saddle pain. I just raced Ironman Wisconsin and rode 20 minutes faster than I had in 2008 for a 5:17 bike split. No saddle pain meant no readjusting on the bike ride and no pain allowed me to focus on the race not my saddle. I got off and ran a PR marathon and in the end qualified for Kona.
I received the Adamo Breakaway seat and gave it a pretty good test drive. It took 6 quick adjustments on the trainer at home to get it just right. The bike and I then left for Spain. Twelve straight days of biking in the hills between Malaga and Granada. 950km and 60,000 feet of climbing and 42 hours in the saddle. No pain, no numbness and no issues at all. Exactly what I expected and more. Thanks for getting the saddle to me in time.
Dr. Richard B.
Like many racers I was reluctant to drift from the "normal" design of road saddles. However, I am a time trialist only and spend almost 100% of my training/racing time on my TT bike in the aero position even on long rides. The last thing anyone needs during a time trial is to become focused on saddle discomfort. I have been using the ISM Racing saddle for over two seasons now and will say without hesitation it is by far the most comfortable saddle for time trialing.
Just a quick note on the new Peak saddle. I have been riding it for a few months now and it is awesome. It got me to a 30th overall finish in the short & fat race (out of 866 starters) at the Chequamegon Fat Tire race in WI. I didn't see any other Peak saddles, but I had a lot of people ask about it.
Thanks again for developing a great product!
USAT & USAC Certified Coach
My name is Mark D, I am an ametuer triathlete and New York City Police Officer and tremendous fan of my ISM gel Adamo saddle, I would like to offer an endorsement of your saddle if I may because I went through 6-8 different saddles both cheap and not so cheap...spending from $80 up to $300.....and finally found your saddle, not only affordable but a perfect fit.. it took very little time to find the saddles sweet spot and when I did it was like riding on a cloud. Great stuff , keep it coming.
NYPD triathlon team
First off I have just recently lost a substantial amount of weight, about 80+ lbs to be brutally honest. I am 48 years old and I haven’t ridden a bike since the early 80’s, when I was in good enough shape to compete in The Long Island Triathlon in 81’, 82’ and 83’. ( I specialized in the swim and bike portion, running has never been my forte’) However in late 83’ I was hit on my bike by a drunk driver and split my tibia plateau on my left knee like a wishbone. It took over a year before I was even able to put weight on that leg. As time went on I never really kept in shape anymore, until finally this past year when I was hospitalized with Pulmonary Embolisms at a body weight of 337lbs. Since then I went on a Hospital type diet and am down well below 250, I tried riding a mountain bike that I bought last year but it hurt me in the groin area. I switched out my saddle with a “BONTRAGER CRUIZER CRZ+”, but still after about a ¼ mile or so I was in serious pain. My Salesman Manny at the Carrollwood Bike Emporium said I should try out an ISM Seat. I chose the “ISM Touring” (mainly because it had more cushion than the “ISM SPORT” even though the Sport has a GEL Filling). The outcome is incredible, I am way past the ¼ mile point. In fact I’m averaging two or three 7 – 10 mile rides every day. This seat feels like it was made for me.
Things have turned around so much for me, in part because of this great Saddle, by next year I should be ready for competitive biking once again. (I still won’t run though) Thanks again ISM for inventing such a great Saddle…..
My wife and I have been riding for 15 years, we started at 50 years old. We ride only tandem bikes and have logged on an average of 4000 miles a year. In my search for the most comfortable seat I now have 48 different seats. Last week end we did a 3 day ride and I put the Adamo Typhoon on for the 1st time for this ride and I can say you have the most comfortable saddle I have ever tried. Looking forward to putting more miles on & will keep you informed after many miles & my wife is also going to give a try. I think it may be the most comfortable saddle for tandem riders because you sit more than on a single bike.
David S. Whitehall, PA
Hey there. Just wanted to give you a quick testimonial on the ISM Touring Saddle which I received this week. First off, I am a 330 pound guy so almost anything like this I have to question because of my weight. I have had serious knee problems since grade school. At this point in life, biking is one of the last resorts for any kind of real exercise. I started this year with 3 different saddles. I was unable to get any further than 2 miles, because of the seats, not being too tired. I did some research and came across the Touring Saddle. What a difference!! My first ride out with this thing, I was able to ride 6 miles, with no issues other than time. I have been riding daily now for a week and my groin feels fine. I have also noticed that my back feels much better with this saddle. I get done a ride, which I realize isn't a 50 miler, with no pain except the burning in the legs from the hills of Vermont. Amazing Saddle that I have had 2 other people try and will be buying soon too!
Adamo Racing Saddle
In 40 years of racing and hard riding I’ve tried them all—Most notably: Unicanitor; Brooks Pro and Swallow; the original Concour; WTB Laser, Pure-V, and Devo; Fizik; Selle SMP and Flite; E3 Form; Terry Fly—Absolutely nothing was truly comfortable and still competitive over the long miles, until I found your saddles. My Adamo Racing saddle is what I was looking for.
Sheldon Brown was my mentor when we were young bike mechanics, and then Ben Olken hired me out of high school in Cambridge, so I’ve been lucky with teachers.
Currently, I’ve lived in the windswept hills of Ithaca, where I am now a teacher myself, Physics and Chemistry, in a small town 15 miles from home. I commute some 3,500 miles by bicycle, with studded snows through most of our awful winter. And then in the summer I do some serious riding.
For example, we have a wonderful 100-mile loop around Cayuga Lake—gently hilly and breathtakingly scenic. We also have several Category 1 slopes, to feed my climbing instinct. And among our forest trails, Shindagin Hollow is a nationally renowned MTB single-track area.
To ride extensively where I live and work requires a saddle that answers many calls.
I have ridden the Adamo Racing saddle exclusively for the past year and a half, on a commuter-modified Fisher Montare, and on a more aggressive Bianchi 928 Carbon… I actually use the Adamo Racing saddle in the full range of seating angles, saddle positions (front-back), and pedaling modes. In every position and purpose, the Adamo Racing is always significantly more comfortable and supportive than any other saddle I’ve tried. For my drops and brake-post positioning over a long distance ride, The Adamo is incomparable—no numbness, no chafing, no aches.
Beyond the obvious aesthetic and build quality, it’s also simply an intriguing design. I get a kick out of people’s reaction to the saddle—there is often a pleasant conversation, to explain the Adamo’s design and advantages.
So you have a fan, and a finally comfortable rider out here. I thank you again.
Jonathan Zisk, Ph.D.
Adamo Typhoon Saddle
Just want to give you my report after finishing the Gold Rush Randonnee, a 1200k or 750 mile ride in California, using my new Typhoon ISM saddle.
Pros: No swelling or pain in my soft tissue female areas. In the past, by the 3rd day of a 1200, (I've done 7 of these) I have had to put a gel pad on my seat and sit way upright or ever ride no hands as much as possible to relieve the pressure here. I have had my soft parts swell up to twice normal size, no fun at all.
More Pros: no "break in time..I rode the seat for about two weeks leading up to the long ride and got used to it right away. No saddle sores or broken skin either from chafing on the seat. I use a lot of chamois cream and am very careful about changing shorts often and keeping ultra clean.
Cons: Some numbness along the pelvic bones forward of the "sit bone" point, some soreness on the sit bone area. It seems inevitable that in any 1200k, there is going to be some soreness.
All in all, your seat is a great improvement over anything else I've tried for long distance!
Adamo Peloton Saddle
Dear ISM Saddles,
I got my Adamo Peloton saddle on Saturday. Took if for a short little 30k ride that day and yesterday and holy cow is this an incredible saddle! When I first got one I was perplexed, I felt really comfortable on one hand and on the other it felt like someone was, ah, touching me inappropriately. But after a few minutes and then after an hour I was convinced.
I had never thought to adjust a saddle as your pamphlet suggest so I brought my tools with me on the ride adjusting the saddle up and down, left and right every 10-15 minutes or so until I found the "sweet spot" and man it makes a big difference.
Thank you for this product and your help!!
It’s been easy for me to maintain my mantra of “Function over Form” since, in life and bike parts, there is usually a functional option that looks good. I’ve been able to have my cake and eat it too until I rode the ugliest saddle ever – the ISM Adamo Race .
The Adamo Race is the first saddle I would consider riding 112 miles in tri shorts. I know many people do that, but I think that unless you are a possible Kona qualifier where every second counts, you are nuts to skip the chance to put on a proper pair of cycling shorts for a 112 mile ride - at least I felt that way until I rode an ISM Adamo saddle. I find this saddle allows me, without a doubt, to be the most comfortable I’ve ever been in an aero position. I’d write more but it’s just that simple - no burning crotch, no numbness, no restriction of movement. I also found that, for me, the saddle required no adjustment time. Often we are told to give a new saddle or position a few weeks before making a judgment but with the Adamo, my first 40-mile ride was just a comfortable as the last ride.
ISM has taken a completely new look at saddles. Not just a cut out, or gel, or more padding in the nose or new rail material but a completely new approach to making the cyclist comfortable and efficient on the saddle. In fact, ISM saddles aren’t even mounted the same way as traditional saddles. ISM provides a good video that walks the user through the proper saddle mounting procedure on their web site. It is a “must see” as this completely different saddle requires a completely different set up than we are used to. After watching the video, I mounted the Adamo Race saddle to my bike and you know, it looked better on the bike than I thought it would. The next day, I set out on a 40-mile ride and my conversion was underway. I was wearing a pair of cycling bibs instead of tri shorts so, as comfortable as I was, I thought that some of it could have been attributed to having a real chamois versus the pseudo chamois found in tri shorts. For the next few rides I used tri shorts but it didn’t make any difference, I was still very comfortable. After each ride, the saddle looked a little better. I’ve also talked to a few folks who’ve been riding Adamo saddles for a while and they tell a similar story of newfound comfort in the aero position.
If you’ve struggled with saddle comfort in the aero position, you must try the ISM Adamo saddle. You may find it to be funny looking at first, but just one ride will have you believing that this saddle’s beauty is in its comfort.
I'd like to thank you for creating such an incredible saddle! Today, I competed PAIN FREE, in a Time Trial for the first time ever!!! I placed 2nd in my category, shaving 50 seconds off of last year's results.
With this saddle, I will now look forward to the Time Trial portion of my Stage Races and the Time Trial training in my programs! Thank you for taking the pain away!!!
2007 Canadian National Maters Road Champ
Seat after seat after seat, and Bike fit after bike fit after bike fit, then I realized maybe I need to try the ISM. So, I got the ISM race and all problems were solved. I am now 2 inches lower in the front end of my tri bike and for the first rime able to get into a more aero position. Thank you ISM your Adamo Race Saddle is awesome. My advice to anyone trying out an ISM you got to give it time and then you will see the benefits. Great saddle thanks for making something so comfortable!!!! The name says it all Ideal Seat Modification for those that ride Bikes!!!
After numerous attempts at traditional saddles, the last count was 6 or 7; and these weren’t inexpensive seats, I saw an advertisement that I’d seen many times in the advertising section of the Bicycling magazine for your product. The one with the tag line, so comfortable, no shorts needed, or something similar.
During the purchase of the 6 or 7 prior models, I had looked extensively at the ISM also, websites and reviews (which seem limited) and FINALLY took the plunge.
As I mentioned previously, the customer service at Trisports was excellent, and impeccable.
The seat: The local bike shop here that has a great manager and knowledgeable mechanics is T-Town and I took the saddle over to Jake and he fitted and measured and re-measured, based on the instructions that came with the saddle.
Well you can imagine the adjustments I had to make, and for the first miles out, I was determined to use the saddle as intended since it is possible to sit, ‘back’ on the saddle and be mildly comfortable. The ‘trick’ for me though was to keep moving ‘forward’ to have the 3 finger widths on the back of the saddle, between the back of the saddle and my rear-end. After about the 3rd time out, this really came together and now I just sit where designed and have ZERO!!!!! perennial numbness, after experiencing LOTS of numbness when on the other saddles. At one point, it was so intense, I was looking at giving up biking altogether or riding a recumbent, which to me is the same thing.
This is the best product on the market besides the bike itself, and you have provided the space needed for me to ride as much as possible with no ‘performance’ issues OR discomfort issues.
I’ve been gauging my speed and noticing the increased confidence on the bike, and no joke, I’ve been able to increase my speeds on the flats, and time in the drops, due to the COMFORT of your saddle. Speed has increased at least 2 mph on average, and in the long flats for extended duration over 3 mph.
I want to thank you again for many pain free miles in the area of the perineum, my legs ache now, which is a good thing.
Please keep up the good work –
My first riding experience was a 45mile loop on varying roads. It was casual pace, during the off season, and allowed me to focus on how my seating position and posture changed throughout the ride. Having researched the seat and technology before riding the ISM Adamo Racing seat, I knew the seats intentions. I have had discomfort during rides at times and the occasional numbness of the pelvic region. Not enjoying either, I have had recent success with a modified slit-seat design but still was inclined to continually shift in my seat to accommodate position and taint comfort. After installing the seat, I was prepared for a new feeling while riding. After a couple of loops around the block I realized how the seat sits directly on your sits bones. This was initially a great feeling, my discomfort was gone, and I could tell no pressure was being placed on my soft tissue. The concern of this becoming a double edged sword, however, soon came about. Never before had so much pressure been placed directly onto my sits bones, causing some sits-bone pain post-ride. The seat was marketed as the worlds most comfortable seat which I can now agree with. Throughout the course of the ride, I found myself shifting in my seat less and zero discomfort from blood flow restriction. The hyperbole of worlds more comfortable seat, however, depends on your bike riding experience. I put a lot of miles on the bike, and have an established stance for riding. Because my sits bones are used to sustaining the pressure incurred from riding, I did not have terrible bone-discomfort from the ISM seat. I do recognize, however, a newby rider, with your entire body weight on two pressure points, could induce extreme initial discomfort. Naturally, this discomfort in temporary as your body adapts to the pressure and vibrations incurred during riding. Also, there is no soft tissue damage. After a number of hours in the seat, I had only mild discomfort towards the end of the ride, due to increased localized pressure on my sits bones, and no discomfort from my soft tissue.
The seats is my personal favorite to date, never before have I seen a seat to completely bypass the possible damage of bike riding. The general statement of “most comfortable seat” comes with a notation regarding an adaptation period for your bones to respond to the pressure. But the concerns of long-term effects of blood flow loss can be forgotten, allowing me to focus on the pains of performance and competition; which is why we ride in the first place.
I must thank you Steve for designing such a wonderful saddle. I will just take a few moments to tell you the whole story.
I had been riding with the saddles provided by the bike manufactures for some time. I felt that they were causing me some problems because of the pressure on some sensitive areas. I went to my urologist for my yearly check up and when I was there I asked him about it. He told me that there are nerves and veins that go through that area and this pressure was not good.
As much as I love to ride I had decided to stop riding because it just was not worth causing problems with my health. A short time later, my wife at the time told me she had heard about a new saddle design.
From the first ride I knew it was "right." It made perfect sense. I then ordered two more for my other bikes and have used them exclusively ever since.
I now live in Chengdu (West Central China). I just finished a one month bike trip with 7 Chinese friends from Chengdu, across the mountain ranges of Western China, into Tibet. Then across Tibet to Lhasa (the capital city and center of Tibetan Buddhism). We spent 8-10 hours a day in the saddle and I couldn't be more satisfied with a saddle. That ride from Chengdu to Lhasa was wonderful but grueling. The ride from Lhasa through the Himalayas to the base camp of Mt. Everest and Kathmandu, Nepal was to be even more so. To give you an idea, we had to rent a van to carry food supplies for 8 riders for 5 days, two boxes of medical supplies, oxygen etc. in case we were cut off by rock slides or avalanche etc. I remember thinking so many times how comfortable my saddle was even after many hours of uphill riding through mountain passes.
I don't usually take as much time as I have writing you this email Steve but I feel that I owe you that much for designing such a wonderful saddle that allowed me to continue my passion for long distance bike riding in comfort and knowing that it is not damaging my health.
Oh... by the way... I am 63 years old.
Take care and good luck Steve.
I had saddle sore issues 3 weeks before going to the Age Group National Triathlon Championship in Oregon and I was not sure what to do. I was actually thinking about withdrawing from the competition. I had not been able to ride for 10 days. My bike shop recommended your saddle for me to try. I did and I loved it. I now brag on it all the time.
Thanks so much,
I’m writing to let you know how your Adamo ISM racing saddle has helped me tremendously. I have experienced back pain on EVERY saddle I’ve tried. In fact, last year, my back bothered me so much on the longer races (half IM) that I decided not to do any long races this year (2007). In the off-season, I tried your ISM racing saddle and I experienced a phenomenal difference. When I rode on this saddle, not only was my back not aggravated (like usual), but it seems riding on this saddle is actually therapeutic. If my back is a little tight, riding on it loosens and improves my back. I think it is because this saddle holds my pelvis more stable with two anchor points (instead of one) and/or allows the pelvis to rotate more forward and thus reducing the strain on the lower back. As a test, after several months when my back was completely improved, I went back and tried the traditional saddle, and the back pain resumed. I switched back to the Adamo and the back pain was again gone. The JOY of riding is back. Everything is better, I can get more power into the pedals, climb better, time-trial better, life is better. I’m signed up to do a half Ironman this year and I am actually considering a full Ironman next year – the thing that held me back is no longer a problem. I need to get one more for my third bike.
San Diego, CA
Dear Steve and the ISM crew,
I just wanted to write a short note to you to let you know how impressed I am with your Adamo line of saddles. I am a triathlete, road racer, and a certified bike fitter for a shop in Normal, IL, so I have worked with and seen a lot of saddles. Once I saw the release of the Adamo, I knew that I had to try one. And once I got my hands on one, I would never go back to anything else.
From a physiological standpoint, the concepts that went into the Adamo are brilliant. The wide cutout relieves all of the pressure on the tender soft tissue and nerves. That tissue is very important and is unfortunately too often overlooked by cyclists. Also, by creating the top of the saddle flat, riders can adjust their position fore and aft according to their comfort, unlike the hundreds of ill-conceived, curved saddles on the market today, which force you into one position only. For a proper bike-fit, this is a very important issue. And perhaps my favorite feature of the Adamo saddles, the widest portion of the saddle is centrally located, not in the rear of the saddle. This seems like a small detail, but from my experience it is not. Placing the widest section of the saddle centrally allows a person’s sit-bones to be supported, while still in the proper position to receive the benefits of the cutout and the vibration-dampening effects of the suspended portion of the saddle. As opposed to saddles with wide sections at the rear that force the rider to ride on the back of saddle, which negates the suspension benefits and soft tissue protection of the saddle.
In short, I have been recommending the Adamo saddles to nearly all of my bike fit clients, and have received nothing but compliments from those that ride them now. From prostate cancer survivors to bike racers and even urologists, everyone here loves the Adamo. So, congratulations on a product well-done! And thank you for creating saddles that protect their riders and that are really comfortable to ride and race on!
Just wanted to say a huge thank you for bringing the ISM seat to market. I was able to get a demo version thru a friend and it is amazing! I can't begin to tell you what a relief it is to not have numb "bits & pieces" after the first 1/2 hour of riding. I actually enjoy riding my trainer now because every thing is kosher down there. It is only going to be a matter of time until these are everywhere. Your seat will be on my bike at Elite Duathlon Short Course Championships in May, perhaps the 1st time for this product at the elite World Championships? Very, very cool idea. I have been shouting from the rooftops that this is FINALLY a saddle for those of us with a history of issues with saddle comfort. I really think my body will be better off as a result of this product. Keep up the good work.
Riptide Multisports Elite Team
I'm the outdoor editor for the Pantagraph, a 50,000 circ newspaper in Bloomington, IL. I'm also well known as a fishing writer for several major angling magazines that cover walleye and muskies.
I am an avid cyclist who did 7,015 miles in 2006 at age 55 despite being diagnosed with prostate cancer in April of that year. I underwent prostate surgery in June, and I wasn't healing right so I had to have another surgery in September. All is well now.
While off the road bike for a time, I had help researching what seat to use to reduce pressure in the area impacted by my surgery. I'd heard of too many people giving up biking as a result of prostate problems. I did not want to be one of them. A triathlete/professional bike fitter named Andy Sweet at Vitesse Cycles in Normal, Il., suggested the Adamo. I ordered the tri model (the road model was just becoming available) and had his professional bike fit to make certain everything was set exactly right. I have been riding pain-free since then.
I've put it to the test. I rode seven centuries from the end of October to the end of the year, including five in December. Two were back to back. Two others were in three days with a 50 mile ride in between. The longest century of those two was 124 miles. I have never once had a problem with the Adamo. None. I have since purchased a second road bike and equipped it with fenders, a rack and bag for commuting and light touring and an Adamo tri saddle. I won't use anything else.
Before the Adamo, I tried a couple of others suggested on the bike forums. But, with some minor modifications and cutouts, they are all pretty much the conventional design with a nose right where you don't want one. I was in agony after 25 miles. The makers always suggest pointing the nose down to relieve pressure. That never worked added more pain to the wrists and arms.
Whether you've had prostate problems or prostate surgery, try the Adamo.
I strongly endorse your product. It is terrific.
At age 69 and post coronary artery bypass surgery, bicycling has been my life-saving form of exercise. Unfortunately, even after numerous trials of different bike seats, my limiting factor for duration of time "in the saddle" has been numbness in the perineal area, to the degree that I would not exercise to the limits of my ability. After using the new ISM™ Touring seat, I now have essentially doubled my time I can bicycle with the limiting factors being the usual physical constraints of age and ability.
Frank D. Tagliarini, M.D.
Tampa, FL. 33612
At the inception of this Tri season I wrote to you about my challenges on the bike. To bring you up to speed, I was getting numb toes about twenty minutes into a ride. Over the years I've invested in three different saddles, two pairs of shoes, new bike (fitting done by a certified fitter), etc. Well, I could go on but I don't think it's necessary to prove to you that I was miserable. Lastly, a two year break after an Ironman didn't help either.
As I mentioned, I wrote to you pleading for help in the form of one of your ISM saddles. I can now, at the end of a complete Tri season, say that your saddle changed my triathlon career. I've successfully raced several races this summer and PR'd each race (two first place, two second place and a third place finish with two races to go). Hours of training have been comfortable. I help lead and train a small tri group (picture attached) in the Lansing Michigan area and believe everyone has heard of the ISM saddle. It's so wonderful to be able to just ride. Not constantly evaluating my numbness, not stressing about having to click out and shake the blood back into my feet - just riding. I've been able to increase my average speed by over two miles per hour for an Olympic distance tri.
I think I've merely tapped the seal of my triathlon potential. I am happy to endorse this product with my most enthusiastic thumbs up!
Having tried the Sport and the Touring I choose the Sport. Not after selling my race bike (to much pressure on my thighs and arms in whatever position) and purchasing back a cross bike which makes me sit straighter.
The Sport type saddle allows my sit bones to communicate the best -so to speak- with the top of the saddle.
It is a pity having to let go my race bike, but greater is the sheer fun of being able to bike again and without any pressure on my prostate!
So, many thanks for your product and advice!